Project-Based Assessment

Speaking: Jean Dyszel, John Machella

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JEAN DYSZEL: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Jean Dyszel and I am the Project Lead with the Department of Education for Project Based Assessment, Development and Implementation. And

with me today --

JOHN MACHELLA: I'm John Machella from the Bureau of Special Education and I'm responsible for assessment for students with disabilities.

JEAN DYSZEL: So our journey today is really going to take you through the Project Based Assessment in the broad sense and John is going to specifically address the Project Based Assessment in

relationship to students with disabilities. So we've got a couple of introductory slides here. The PaTTAN Mission. We are actually here at PaTTAN Harrisburg doing this presentation for you. And

you'll also note here there's another stock slide, if you will, on Least Restrictive Environment which is part of what we're required to do when we do these presentations. But we're really going to

move today to the agenda that you see before you. And we're going to start and this is the role I will take of the whole picture of the Project Based Assessment, what it looks like, where it came

from, what the requirements are and then John is going to step in and we will then chat together about all of these topics that you see before you.

I would draw your eye if you will please to the last bullet which are not permitting because we had 900 people registered for this webinar. It didn't seem reasonable to open the chat room or have

questions during the presentation. So what we're asking you to do is if you have question along the way, you might just want to open your email and drop your questions in and you can send those

questions to PBAPaTTAN.net. That's at the bottom in the footer of every one of these slides so that's just a reminder that we're not ignoring what good questions you might have to say, but trying to

move this along in a timely manner.

Thusly, just keep I mind as you listen through the whole webinar the questions you might have, when we receive those questions, we'll take a look at them, we'll organize them, and we will respond to

them and we will respond with a frequently asked question, we'll post it on the SAS website in the Assessment tab under of course Project Based Assessment and we'll put a queue, if you will, on the

home page of SAS when those questions are posted. So stay tuned and watch for that. I'm guessing depending on the number of questions, it will probably take us a few weeks to respond to those, but we

will surely get back to you with that. Okay?

So let me just walk you through the whole concept of the Project Based Assessment. And I'm sure those of you who know well are Chapter 4 which was approved on March 1, 2014. We know that at this point

we've got these three Keystone Exams; we have Algebra I, Biology, and Literature. And we also know that each one of those Keystone Exams has modules; a module A or B or a module 1 and 2. So that for

example in literature there is a fiction module and there is a non-fiction model. Thusly, as students will take the exam, they can score overly proficient or advanced on one or both modules and if

they, as you look at bullet three here, if after generally two takes of a Keystone, they haven't met that level of proficiency, they can move to Project Based Assessment.

And notice, if you will, we have generally highlighted because we don't want to paint with a broad brush. On the other hand, the majority of our students will fall in that two takes. But there are

exceptions and one of those exceptions maybe a student with an IEP. Another example, a student who is in a CTC or Votech school can move to the biology Project Based Assessment after one take of the

biology exam. So there are just two examples of what may be exceptions. There are others as well. For example, students with a religious opt-out may move directly to the projects. The important thing

we need to remember here is that if the student cannot earn proficiency on the Keystone Exam, then the PBA is that opportunity to move to proficiency because effective with the class of 2017, all of

our students will have to demonstrate that proficiency in order to qualify to meet the state graduation requirements.

Notice, if you will, in bold blue letters at the bottom, for federal accountability, all students as it says here with an IEP must take the Keystone Exam and again, that's for the purpose of our

federal accountability.

So just to dig them a little more deeply into the PBA process, there are really five key roles. There is a School Assessment Coordinator and that could be LEA or School Assessment Coordinator. And you

are an LEA or a School Assessment Coordinator for the PBA if you are also an LEA or School Assessment Coordinator for the PSSAS and the Keystone Exams. So I'll show you a little bit later how you can

log on to the site and register students. If you believe that you are a School Assessment Coordinator and you are not able to access the ability to enroll students, you can simply email the help desk

at SAS or the PBA help desk and they'll walk you through that.

The Test Administrator and this is a term that sort of -- I get confused, but the Test Administrator is the individual who is in the room while students are working on the project. They are literally

the folks who administer the test and that can be -- literally can be a Principal, an Assistant Principal, a Guidance Counselor, a teacher, whomever you determine is going to be present when students

are working on the project. Now the Test Administrator can also be the tutor, but not necessarily. So in a high school setting, maybe you've set aside a Mod 3 study hall that students would be

assigned to go there and work on their projects. And there could be algebra students and biology students and literature students in that same room all working at the same time. That would be the

role of the Test Administrator to get these students logged on and working and just monitor their work. Not provide remediation, not do any sort of tutoring.

The tutor, on the other hand, is the individual who typically would be certified in the content area and then that tutor would be working with the student either virtually or face to face as the

student moves through the project to assess the work that the student is doing, provide feedback or remediation as necessary, and along the way at designated checkpoints along the way, the tutor

would mark the work as being satisfactory or unsatisfactory. So that in these projects which are really chunked by tasks, when the student finishes a task he or she can go no further until the tutor

goes in and evaluates that work. So the tutor plays a very key role. When you enroll a student for the project, you also simultaneously enroll a tutor for that individual student and I'll show you

the manual a little bit later how you actually do that.

The student actually plays the key role in terms of doing work and doing it well. The one thing that I might mention to you that has come up with the students who've been in projects this past year in

particular, is when the student is assigned a project, let's say that student picks up that project at the start of the second semester. So end of January, they're enrolled in a project and lo and

behold we come to May or June and the student has not completed the project, the project stays with the student so that even though on August 1 we roll out a whole new set of projects, that student

is now not put into a new different project but stays with that project until they're able to get it completed. It just made no sense for kids to start over on a new project.

There is also then an Evaluator role so that when projects are submitted for evaluations and those projects are submitted not by the student, but by the tutor. So when the tutor deems that the work is

satisfactory, there's actually a submit button and that moves in where the projects fall into a queue and they are randomly assigned to two Evaluators. Evaluators are certified folks who have

volunteered to do this good work and the projects go to Evaluators at the same time. Those Evaluators evaluate the project independently and if both of the Evaluators agree that the project is

satisfactory, then the message that goes back to the tutor, the student, and the Administrator are congratulations, you met the requirement for graduation for this particular tested area.

If, however, one Evaluator marks the project as satisfactory and one marks it unsatisfactory or if they both deem it to be unsatisfactory, it's going to go to another set of Evaluators. An important

thing you need to know, too, is that when an Evaluator marks a particular part of the work as unsatisfactory, it just can't be marked unsat and then oh well we just move on. The Evaluator has to

provide feedback and that feedback would really be for the tutor then to go back into the project to tell the student what they need to edit, enhance, correct, alter, change, redo, whatever that

might be. So in a nutshell, they are the roles that are key in the process.

So just a few bullet points that are important to know is that all of our projects have been created with Pennsylvania educators who have come to Harrisburg for days and days and days each year to

create these projects. They are all certified folks and I would say that probably 90% of them are currently teaching those Keystone courses and we've had some incredibly creative work done by them.

This whole project is done in an online fashion so that a student logs on and works on the project with that Test Administrator present. So anybody can log onto the PBA site, but as a student you

cannot move forward -- no one can move forward in the site, no student can move forward in the site until the Test Administrator provides them with a security code. So the student will key in the

security code and they'll have 60 minutes minimally to work on the project. Now if they continue to work beyond the 60 minutes, the time does not expire. However, at the end of the 45 minutes, that's

the end of the class period and they shut down, they would not then be able to go onto the next class and log on again. We would need to regenerate a new test code.

We'll talk perhaps a little bit later is that there is a PDF version of the project not just for a student with an IEP, but if the educators, the tutors perhaps believe the student would be better

served by working with paper and pencil either because of an IEP or because of learning style, that can be done as well. So that's an option for all tutors for every student.

I also mentioned that our projects are broken into tasks, scaffolded tasks so we think we've done a really nice job in sort of chunking along the way. Because our worry was that if we presented a

project to a student and said, "Go at it," and because these projects build upon one another, if in Task 1 you had perhaps an algebra put in an erroneous equation or in literature you had mistaken a

character or some other literary element, it would take you on a skewed path and, therefore, the rest of your project would be for naught. So it is scaffolded and they're sort of easy to read,

relatively easy to follow, chunked bits of work that students that do.

When we build the projects, we ask our educators that we'd like to have these projects be completed in approximately five to seven hours. But we have noticed or noted in our field test that it's

probably five to seven hours for the average student. And quite frankly, the students who are doing these projects likely are not average students. So when we did field tests, we actually had

students who completed the projects in less than three hours and we had some students who spent 15 hours on the projects and did not get them done. So you think about the range of students that you

work with and there is no sort of magic number. But in my personal experience as I've visited schools and talked with tutors, it looks like 10 hours more or less is about the time they would say it

took students to do the work. But again, it depends on how quickly they work, how motivated they are, and how much remediation they need to move forward.

So again, we talked about that Test Administrator that the whole point of the matter is, is that we don't a student a project and tell them to go forward and do good work. That project must be

completed in a supervised environment whether it's whatever the school district decides -- whether it's a course, a half-graded course, a study hall assignment, an after school whatever, innovative

things you can do to have this work. That's at your discretion.

And then this last bullet I'm really not going to address. I believe John is probably going to talk about what it is we can or cannot do in terms of accommodations. So we'll chat about in a little

more detail.

So again, what you see here just really a summary of what I've talked about. The scaffolded activities, the heavy duty work of the tutor, if you will. And within each of our projects we have resources

so that if you're working a particular part of a project and the student's working and you realize, for example, gee whiz, I don't think this student really understands point of view in reading a bit

of literature. We have some fast resources that the student and the tutor can go to and be able to use. The other question that's often asked is, "Well, can the student go out in the website and

search?" And the answer is yes. So there are assets available to a student beyond the project itself, beyond the tutor, beyond the associated resources that we have in there. The student can actually

go out and use the web.

In talking with Secretary Dumaresq some time ago, her response when we said, "Well, you know, kids can go out into the World Wide Web and find answers." And she said, "I'd be thrilled if they did."

Because remember, we're trying to scaffold kids to success. We're not trying to focus here on catching them doing something wrong.

And then at the end of the project there is a scoring guide. The student sees it, the tutor sees it, the Evaluator sees it. So everybody knows what is required and that scoring guide is really based

on the eligible content of the Keystone Exam. So every activity in the project, one way or the other, is connected to one or more pieces of eligible content.

So I'm going to step back for a few moments and John's going to delve into the world of the students with IEPs. John?

JOHN MACHELLA: Thank you, Jean. Basically what I'd like to start with, there's some foundation questions and answers so that you get a general sense as to what you can expect with students with

disabilities. So the first question is there a requirement for a student with an IEP to take the Keystone Exam at least once? And the response to that is yes. It's in regulations, but one of the

things that Special Education teachers, Administrators can always refer to is the Assessment section of the IEP. That section spells out specifically what the requirements are regarding a student

taking the Keystone Exam.

response is no. Again refer to the Assessment section, but it is in the requirements that a student must take the Keystone Exam at least once.

Next set of questions; who makes the determination of how a student with an IEP meets graduation requirements if the first attempt at the Keystone Exam is unsuccessful? Well, it refers back to the IEP

team. That's the body of people that actually make those decisions and again, how is that documented? It's documented via the IEP process.

Next question; can a decision for determination of meets graduation requirements be based on satisfactorily completing a special education program? The response is yes. That's in federal regulations

and also in our state regulations that successful completion of an IEP will warrant meeting graduation requirements. Or the decision for meeting graduation requirements based on satisfactorily

completing via a credit based approach? The response is yes. So there are options for students with IEPs that include the Keystone, the Project Based Assessment and then in addition to that, meeting

IEP goals.

So the next step, in the event that the student has taken the Keystone Exam and the next steps would be to convene an IEP meeting to discuss the next steps in assessment. Again, reinforcing the fact

that it's the IEP team that makes the assessment decisions and keep this phrase in mind to discuss the term and document how a student with a disability meets graduation requirements. I think that

our intent is when you look at assessment and Keystones and Project Based Assessments or graduated by the IEP, keep in mind that approximately 45% of the students of the 270,000 students with

disabilities in Pennsylvania are students with learning disabilities. Approximately another 15% have speech and language difficulties. So the expectation is many of the students with disabilities are

going to be taking the Keystone Exam and Project Based Assessment and not excluding the IEP, but that is not the intent to jump right to an IEP decision. You have to keep each individual student in

mind and what their individual needs are when making assessment decisions.

Next question is what is your interpretation regarding special education students taking the biology Keystone Exam and right now the response is -- and Jean touched on this also about students who

don't take biology possibly due to attending an occupational program at a career and technology center. Well, the response to that would be the federal regulations require that all students,

including students with disabilities, must participate in statewide assessments. Again, in Pennsylvania the Keystone Exams fulfill the state requirement of the secondary statewide assessment and it

replaced the 11th grade PSSA. So if a student is not participating in the past or the alternate assessment in Pennsylvania is the statewide assessment for students with significant cognitive

disabilities, the student must participate in the Keystone algebra, English, ELA, literature and biology by the end of 11th grade to comply with the federal requirements.

And the next question is specifically about accommodations. What accommodations are available with students with an IEP who will be taking the Project Based Assessment? That's going to encompass a

variety of IEP decisions, however, the response is after taking the Keystone Exam required to meet the federal accountability requirements, the IEP team and I want to stress at this point that that

IEP team is special educator teacher, regular education teacher, you have an LEA from the district, you have parents, all those and other knowledgeable parties involved in that decision making

process to make that decision if they'll graduate based satisfactorily upon the special ed program as developed by the IEP.

However, if the IEP team makes the decision that the student will take the Project Based Assessment, the IEP team determines what accommodations and/or special designed structure will be used and

included in the annual IEP as the accommodations for Project Based Assessment.

So when you're thinking about assessment for secondary students with disabilities, the first option would be the Keystone Exams and then reinforcing the fact that students with disabilities who do not

qualify to take the alternate assessment must take the Keystone Exam at least once. We also have the Project Based Assessment that Jean mentioned and reviewed details about that is another option for

students with IEPs to meet the graduation requirements. And again, just reinforcing the fact that the alternate assessment or the PASA would be for those students with the most significant cognitive

disabilities as the other type of assessment available for secondary students.

So for Keystone Exams, there are -- and again, it's a regular caring language in our Chapter 14 requirements and also in our Chapter 4 requirements regarding how students with disabilities must

participate in statewide assessments. And I'm going to review a little bit of the process for what occurs after a student may take the Keystone Examination.

So basically if a student attains proficiency in algebra, English language, arts, they would actually meet the component for graduation. For those students who do not attain proficiency in algebra

ELA, options available for students with disabilities to retake the Keystone, complete Project Based Assessments or complete their IEP goals. So gain, these are IEP team decisions and again, looking

at specific students they have the option to retake the Keystone Exam with supplemental instruction. They can begin the process for taking a Project Based Assessment or IEP development and goals to

meet the graduation requirements.

JEAN DYSZEL: And I'm going to just interrupt for a second here, John, because one of the things you might want to consider is that while a student is in the PBA mode, if the instructor of the tutor

feels that it is worthy for the student to attempt the Keystone Exam again, they may do that. So it's just another option along the way. Okay?

JOHN MACHELLA: Very good. I want to talk a little bit about how to make the informed decisions for students with IEPs. Options should be viewed on a continuum. Option 1 being the most desirable way

that a student with an IEP can participate in statewide assessments and in our option most students with IEPs should be expected to participate in statewide testing via the Keystone or the Project

Based Assessment. Making assessment participation decisions, the IEP team should move along a list of options making sure to base its decisions on the individual student and the highest expectations

for that student.

Again, regarding the decisions, the assessment options should be tailored to each individual student and should not be made on a disability category of a student. For example, all students with the

same disability should not participate in the same testing option. In addition, IEP teams should make assessment participation decisions each year for each assessment.

As far as different scenarios, students with IEPs again reinforcing the fact that they take the Keystone and if do not complete it successfully, it would revert back to the IEP team. They have an

option to retake the Keystone Exam with supplemental instruction and that may be the appropriate avenue for many students with IEPs to insure that they're meeting high expectations and are able to

demonstrate that they can gain proficiency on the Keystone Exam.

JEAN DYSZEL: And John, I just want to reinforce the fact that after the first failure of a Keystone Exam, Chapter 4 has a requirement that we provide supplementary instruction before there is a

retake which just makes perfect sense when you think about it because you don't fail a test and say good grief, just take it again. And that supplemental instruction, often people will say what does

that look like? And my answer is it depends. It depends on the need of the student. If there's someone who just at the cusp of coming into that proficient level, that supplementary instruction may be

very different from someone else who scored below basic and has a dearth of knowledge. So that supplemental instruction is at your discretion to what best meets the needs of your particular students.

JOHN MACHELLA: Mm-hmm. Another scenario would be the Project Based Assessment with accommodations. And basically depending on the design and overall format of the typical IEP, you're looking at three

Thank you.

areas in which accommodations can be addressed. You have the section regarding consideration special factors. This is where communication or system technology supports are considered. You also have

the section with supplementary aids and services, especially designed instruction. So you have all those type of accommodations that are typically in an IEP that a student would utilize in regular

education and/or in special education. Or the other section that would address accommodations would be the participation and assessments. And then that section would actually document accommodations

needed to facilitate with the same students with disabilities in general, state, and district-wide assessments.

And we had an example for students that may have blind or visual impairment. There will be accommodations specifically that would address their needs as just one example. So it doesn't exclude any

students. All students with disabilities would be able to have accommodations available to them and are addressed in the IEP.

The third scenario would be a student that the IEP team makes a decision utilizing the IEP goals for meeting graduation requirements. In this section, there's several areas that I think would be

critical for an IEP team to really analyze before making a decision. Taking a look at past assessment performances, are there documented any present level section of the IEP. Also especially for

students that are near graduation that transition. The process starts at age 14. As they move along, the progression towards graduation, the transition goals and the transition grid included in the

IEP are extremely important factors for the IEP team to consider when making this decision regarding a student using their IEP goals to meet the graduation requirements.

And again, just to reinforce the fact about Project Based Assessments, students with disabilities who do not achieve proficiency on the Keystone Exam may complete the Project Based Assessment and

again, it's in line with the modules as Jean mentioned, developed by the Department and school staff and again, they're scored by a statewide palette of educators.

JEAN DYSZEL: All right, thank you, John. I'm going to take you into the SAS site and show you some of the resources that we have available to help you. And if my link works here, we're going to go

into the SAS site and I need to dismiss my appointments here. Forgive me. I'm in SAS just to give you a sense of where I am and I have gone directly to the Assessment tab. That's where it's taken me

and I have linked it directly to the Keystone Exams.

I want to show you what's in here because I think a lot of people are perhaps not aware of what's here. The first set of documents that you have here, we call those just getting started and folks have

said well okay, I'm a tutor, what do I do? And I'm not going to open these, but these are very short little documents that says here's your role and here's what you are to do. As for example, one of

the questions we get from tutors is well, how much information can I give? I mean do I tell them it's wrong and give them the formula or do I give them the answer or what do I do? And we've addressed

in each of these brief little documents your role and what it is you're to do.

In the getting started document for students, it's just a few pages of a few questions, how do I log on, how do I key in my answers, how do I save my work, and I call this sort of like the coloring

book version, if you will, because each one of the questions has an associated visual. We've captured a screen shot to say this is the screen you should be on and this is what you need to do. So

these are helpful documents as you move forward so we think they will be valuable to you.

We also have, and these are old, we have a new set of FAQs that we're planning to post in the next week or two. But there's nothing erroneous here. The new set of FAQs really responds to the many,

many more questions that have come up over the course of the past couple of years actually. There's also just a very brief document here which talks about those key roles. Again, the tutor, the

Assessment Coordinator, the Test Administrator and so on. So there's also a brief little video which if you haven't seen it, it's about an eight minute video. It's really geared towards students and

it says so what is this thing and what do I do and how does it work? So we take you through a field test project and it's narrated and really quite well done.

We also have and we're going to probably clean most of these out, but these are webinars that we've done in the past. I'm not sure you need to pay much attention to those. But I would say that if you

are an Assessment Coordinator and I'm guessing that of the 400 or 50 so of you who are on right now, most of you are probably Assessment Coordinators and carry that key level. And this particular

user guide, perhaps I'm going to open this one, so you can get a sense of so what do I do next? Okay, Jean, I think I understand this and I have students that I think are ready to move into projects.

And so in this -- it's 37 pages, but again we tried to give you some visual cues here. But I just want to give you a sense of what this looks like. And skip all this introductory part, but the Table

of Contents is probably important. But so if you're saying, okay I want to register a tutor or I want to register a student, I want to add a project for a particular student already registered,

whatever you need to do to get this system working.

So this is what it looks like. We start and say okay my friends, this is how you log in. This is what you do. Now if you try to do this and you're denied it may be that you are not in the system as an

Administrator. In that case again, you can just call that toll free number -- it sounds like I'm selling something, but you can just call that toll free number or send an email and we'll make sure

that you're put on as an Administrator.

So this might look -- it really isn't daunting. It's really step by step by step. I personally am technology challenged and even I can do this. So I would encourage you to read it and hopefully I know

that it will help you. And so again, we have a user guide for tutor, how do I log on, how do I access student projects, how do I approve, how do I disapprove, how do I send a message to my student

and thusly, we have all of these.

And lastly, perhaps not importantly, but lastly there's a little summary of what our projects are about and we have some -- these are from our first year field test projects. And I would say quite

frankly of all the projects we've done, they're probably not the best because it was the first year that we did them, it was field test, and so we've learned a great deal as we all do as we move

forward with our good work.

So if you look at it to get a sense of so what does a project look like and how do students work, what you have here is not an online version but a PDF version. And interestingly enough -- just a

quick little story, they don't want to prolong this -- I heard from a teacher in the spring who said I think it was in algebra, she said I had one of my sections of students at the end of the year

complete the project. And she said interestingly enough when they were all done, they told their underclassmen friends whatever you do, pass the Keystone because these projects are not easy.

Remember, these projects were not designed to be easier. These projects are an alternative type of assessment, a project assessment. Remember, it's the same level of difficulty, the same challenge,

the same eligible content, the same depth of knowledge as the Keystone Exam. But I think these kiddos thought they could just, you know, move through this in a very quick manner and get it done

lickety split and improve and it didn't work that way. And it's sort of a positive bit of feedback.

I would also suggest one other item to you, too. There were a few schools in the project this year. They were all in Algebra I and the interesting part of this is at least at one of the schools they

had about 15 kids in the algebra project. And as the students were almost done with the PPAs in algebra, they retook the Keystone Exam and I think without exception they all passed. So I'm not sure

there's a cause and effect there, but I will tell you that it can serve sort of remedial purpose, if you will, to move kids toward perhaps another retake of the Keystone. Now we can't require kids to

do a retake of the Keystone once they qualify for project, but it is a consideration to say, you know, you've done so well on this project, you're almost done, would you like to take the Keystone?

And that is a decision, of course, that you would make as a school.

So I've shown you the getting started manuals and remember, that's PDESAS.org. You're going to click on Assessment and you're going to click on Project Based Assessments and I think it will answer a

great deal of questions. So that's an important piece, I think, for you.

So as we conclude this with you today, we want to remind you that PBA at PaTTAN.net is your first go-to place. We will look very carefully at your questions and if it's something rather unique that we

need to respond to you directly, we would certainly do that. Otherwise, if it's a large scale question, we'll make that part of our Frequently Asked Questions. But your feedback's important and we

look forward to hearing from you.

So this again what I've just said, we will make sure that you as folks in the field have the answers that you need to move forward and if you see things that are problematic, we'll hopefully help be

your problem solver just as well. And so, we just have this brief little chart that sort of talks about really in summary what we've just journeyed through. I would suggest that every intermediate

unit across the land, all 29 intermediate units have an individual who is minimally assigned the role as the Project Based Assessment, I'll say Coordinator for lack of a better phrase. But there is a

designed person in every IU. So they can be your first line of contact.

Now if you have students in projects and there's a technical issue, you obviously want to go to the SAS help desk and say, you know, we can't save our responses, we can't upload documents or something

of that nature. But along the way as you're registering students, as you're implementing as students are working through projects, your IU is a very rich resource in helping you again with the PDE

process and also from the IEP perspective as well because there are experts in every intermediate unit on the curriculum side and on the special education side. And so it's our boots on the ground

support as you work through this process. So we'd just like you to keep that in mind.

And again, SAS is your go-to place. If you are not a member of the SAS community, it will cue you to join. I would encourage you to join, but you can get to the system itself and you can get to the

Project Based Assessment without having membership. But we think it's important that you're part of that as well. So we do encourage you to become a member of SAS. It gives you other assets you can

access as well.

And lastly, as we told you from the beginning, John and Jean are the two folks who presented this for you today and we've both given you our email addresses and that's my cell phone number. John, is

that yours as well?

JOHN MARCHELLA: Office.

JEAN DYSZEL: Office number, okay. Feel free to send us emails directly if you so choose or to call either one of us. We would be delighted to respond. Any questions you might have. John?

JOHN MARCHELLA: Just one comment about your questions. We hope that you're able to send the questions in that you have because it's going to be very important for us to get responses out in a timely

fashion. But in addition to actually looking at your questions, we're going to analyze and look at those questions to see if we need to develop any types of training around some of the larger issues

that are out there throughout the course of the next year. So again, your questions would be very helpful to us in developing that process.

JEAN DYSZEL: All righty. So this was a really good group our presentations were today. We thank those 421 of you who are in attendance and wish you a good day, be well, do good work and as we've said

multiple times here, keep in touch. Thank you so much.